The Caterer interview: Liz Flynn, Cubitt House

19 April 2023 by

The people director at London pub group Cubitt House believes that rethinking and reformulating hospitality's hours and culture is the key to making the industry more attractive to employees. She talks to Caroline Baldwin

You will be speaking at The Caterer's People Summit on ‘changing perceptions, behaviour, management and culture'. Do you think the industry has a long way to go?

I would say yes and no. I think we need to put ourselves in the shoes of people who want to work with us, and we need a bit of realism as well. We can blame Covid for a lot of things, but I think our industry is guilty of blaming Covid for some things that we were maybe doing wrong before the pandemic anyway.

I've been working in hospitality since I was 14 and I remember phrases on the staff rota spreadsheet like TBE, which stood for ‘The Bitter End'. As an industry we would think we're hardcore, that we don't suffer fools, and you either live and breathe hospitality or you're not welcome. This is a culture that even I as an HR person have been guilty of believing.

You might have seen a team member falter, think they can't hack the pace and that they're just not cut out for hospitality. But this attitude means we've been excluding a lot of people, particularly when you think about the working hours. This industry is fabulous in so many ways, but if you want to be a parent and see your kids, or dare I say it, see your significant other, it gets to a point where people put a cap on the job. They think they'll do it until they get to a point in their lives where they'll start a family or their relationship becomes more serious. Previously we might have thought these people weren't ‘hospitality people' – but they are – and we can make it quite intolerable to stay with us. It's almost like constructive dismissal: we're not saying you have to go, but we won't make the hours better or offer part-time.

So do you think this attitude is changing?

Covid gave us time to reflect, and what we needed to do is make hospitality an attractive place to work. It's not just about the money, we need to give employees a life outside of work. We must change the mindset of having to work a 60-hour week. We have the best waiting staff working for us at Cubitt House, but some have bizarre working hours. One wonderful lady has rejoined hospitality after 25 years away. She likes to work 11am to 4pm every day, and ordinarily in hospitality we would have said no, but the value she brings is fantastic and she can walk her dog in the morning and see her grandkids in the evening. So let's not just dismiss people who request hours we wouldn't normally be able to accommodate. Let's question it and see if we can make it work.

How do we go about creating a better working environment?

We can all say it's about pay, and of course, we all love being paid well, but that isn't everything. People want a sense of belonging – you might not earn as much as friends working in banking in the City, but you have a lot of fun.

We also need to make sure we share our mission and our values because the younger generation really question this. They want to know what they're part of and what the business stands for. They are much more well informed – they want to know how the supply chain works and how people are being treated at each end of that. And there are certain non-negotiables for them too: they want a work-life balance.

How can businesses start to offer a better work-life balance?

It begins with the basics of how we roster people and work out what they want in terms of a work-life balance. There's no reason why we can't give staff a rota a fortnight or a month in advance so they can plan their lives. It's not a huge monetary investment, it's just organisation and, let's be honest, good manners.

We also need to look at contracts a bit differently. Some people need to know they're getting paid for 40 hours per week, but others might be looking for part-time or a more flexible contract. So rather than dismissing them because they can't always be available, we could look at zero-hours contracts. When zero-hours contracts are done for the right reasons they are wonderful, but they have been misused in the past. But if you don't have them you exclude people, like students or out-of-work actors that need flexibility. If it's a respectful relationship where both parties want the same outcome, it works really well.

How are you managing staff pay expectations in the midst of a cost of living crisis?

It's a strange period and things are evolving so quickly. Historically we might have done a pay review on an annual basis, as the majority of companies do, but at the moment it's a live issue and we are continually reviewing it. The national minimum wage is going up significantly, and quite rightly so, but pay needs to be a live, moving document.

What are today's employees expecting in terms of benefits beyond salary?

We use the benefits and rewards platform Perkbox, which is very useful. It offers staff a free coffee in the morning, discounts on grocery shopping and restaurants. But we can use it as a way to incentivise staff, such as giving employee of the month rewards through the platform and a contribution to a food shop.

We also let staff request their wage early through payroll if they're having a tight month, as well as managing the company pension and cycle to work schemes. We're even in the process of implementing private healthcare and critical illness for certain teams, which is a substantial cost but it's something we all worry about, particularly post-Covid. At the end of the day, when we're feeling quite vulnerable, let's keep reviewing take-home pay, and look at other ways to provide a bit of a cushion.

How are you enjoying working with chef director Ben Tish?

I work really closely with Ben. I started at Cubitt House last April and in that time we've had only one [chef] vacancy across our nine sites, which is quite unheard of, and I think the reason is Ben. When I see him managing his team, they're always learning. He's a very inspiring leader and I think that's very important. He gives them that understanding about what they're buying into in terms of the brand, but gives them a lot of freedom to be creative. That's the thing – freedom, but having someone who has your back to encourage you to try new things. I don't think there's any bad stress in our kitchens. There's elements of good stress, like excitement, but I don't think chefs are kept awake at night by their roles.

Are you doing anything to help employees cultivate a love for the industry?

We're implementing an incentive to inject fun into what our staff do. We've given our general manager and head chefs a monthly sum to use as they want, but the directive is to have fun together and create that camaraderie. It's a transparent experiment on my behalf to get front of house and back of house working well together, and we encourage them to go out and try a new cocktail bar or restaurant. They then have to do a short SWOT analysis on the venue they visit. But it's not really about the report, it's more to encourage them to be foodies and get them thinking about what makes the best food or cocktail. And it's amazing if they have a giggle while they're doing it.

There needs to be some acceptance that some of our team might be the best waiting staff but they just have no interest in a career in hospitality. However, if we can get them interested in food, then it doesn't really matter, because that passion will come across to our customers regardless of whether they go on to become a lawyer or an actor.

How do you go about cultivating a more inclusive environment?

We do unconscious bias and diversity training, but I think the more important thing is having an environment where it's OK to ask questions. It's fantastic that we're so much more inclusive and the way things are heading is positive, but I do want to make sure staff are acting inclusively. No one is born knowing everything. It's never OK to discriminate, but it's OK to ask questions and it's OK for people to say ‘actually I'm not sure how to address this [person's pronouns] and I don't want to say the wrong thing'. This has come to prominence in the past few years in terms of the language we use, and people don't automatically know. It's a journey, but we need to create a safe space to learn.

What new skills do managers need to support the workforce of tomorrow?

I think it's a mindset. Managers need to start thinking much more holistically, and that will go a long way towards retaining people. It's not just about ‘here's the job and this is what you're signing up to'. People need to be given an element of learning and education, as well as freedom and autonomy, no matter how junior they are. Our employees also need to understand what the end result of their work is – if it's a kitchen porter, for example, they may need to understand that because of their hard work the restaurant has had a successful event and the customer is happy. Even if the employee is only working with you while they're backpacking for six months, everyone needs a bit of feedback.

CV

  • 2022-present People director, Cubitt House
  • 2016-present Company director, LFconsultancy
  • 2014-2016 Head of human resources, Fortnum & Mason
  • 2008-2011 Staffing and training manager, Absolute Taste McLaren Group
  • 2006-2007 Recruitment consultant, PwC
  • 2006-2007 Recruitment and training co-ordinator, Haymarket Publishing
  • 2005-2006 Recruitment consultant, Source4 Personnel Solutions
  • 2001-2002 Assistant manager, Brodie's Wine Bar & Restaurant
  • 1998-1999 Duty manager/bar supervisor, Sloane Square hotel

The Caterer People Summit

The Caterer's 2023 People Summit will focus on people and purpose, with speakers, panellists and presenters sharing best practice on what makes a ‘best place to work in hospitality', as well as how businesses can ensure their ethos matches the environment their employees are looking for.

The sessions will cover subjects such as personalisation, independent thinking, flexibility and equity, technology and personal development. We will also be speaking to operators who have retained their staff to find out how they have changed their processes to reduce workplace stress for their teams.

Along with Liz Flynn, speakers will include Chris Mitchell, chief executive of Genuine Dining, and Liam Hatcher, head of people and development at CH&Co.

To book your place, go to www.thecaterersummits.com/2023

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